Marcia Beckner
Welcome back to the Nonprofit CEO SPARK Podcast. I’m Marcia Beckner, your host.
A quick question for you listening today: When’s the last time you took a real break? Not a long weekend where you’re still checking email, not a vacation where your brain never clocks out, an honest to goodness unplug and recharge trust your team kind of break.
If you’re wincing right now, this episode today is for you. My guest built an executive director sabbatical program that’s already sent dozens of Colorado nonprofit CEOs off to rest with the infrastructure to make it work.
She didn’t just design an escape route; she designed a more sustainable path forward. I am thrilled to welcome Dr. , president and CEO of the Colorado Health Foundation, Karen started as a special education teacher and then spent 16 years at the Center for Creative Leadership studying what makes leaders thrive.
It’s the same thing that’s driven her since day one: staying close to the people who need it most, which is exactly why this sabbatical program is so her.
She knows leaders can’t stay close to community if they’re running on fumes. Oh, and outside the office, it’s been said she has a minor shoe obsession, and I can personally validate her fashion is off the charts, along with her serious talent for a reading a good book with a glass of wine on her deck.
That is balance in action. Karen, welcome to the podcast. I’ve been so looking forward to this one.
Karen McNeil-Miller
Thank you so very much, Marcia. Thanks for having me.
And yes, I do have a. It’s actually more like a major shoe obsession, but minor just sounds better.
Marcia Beckner
Okay, we’re gonna have to talk about shoes if we have time towards the end because I love shoes too.
But really, today I’m so honored to have your your expertise and your time and your energy to share why you created an executive director sabbatical program. I feel like that is so pioneering and so underutilized across our sector.
And so, kind of like, what was the epiphany that you needed that that you thought that our sector needed a sabbatical program like this that provided the infrastructure for rest and recalibration? And like, and kind of wrap your whole like leadership philosophy in with it.
Karen McNeil-Miller
Sure. So part of the sabbatical program origin was, you know, me is kind of a do as I say, not as I do, because I have not been the best at rest and self care myself.
I actually kind of came up in the generation where it was, you know, it was a badge of honor to not take all your PTO, and it’s only been in the last, you know, eight or nine years that I’ve really become to to understand how rest is so critical to leadership and leadership effectiveness, and leadership longevity, and leadership sustainability.
And so the sabbatical program came as we looked around the state, and we continue to see nonprofit executives just overwhelmed, burdened with the you know the communities that they serve, not burdened by the communities, but burdened with trying to help communities push through those those things, and knowing that we are seeing more and more folks leave the field.
There are there were surveys that were done that showed like two thirds of the folks who were eligible to retire were planning on retiring, and it’s what what a talent drain that we can’t afford because communities need the experience and the the talent that our folks bring.
And so it was. Let’s figure out how to give them a rest. They deserve a rest. Let’s figure out how to give them a rest, and number two, build up the nonprofit bench by knowing that we’re going to support the interim leaders.
And third is let’s kind of try to demystify philanthropy and have executives spend one month of their four-month sabbatical as executive in residence with us to help them see that we’re not the boogeyman.
We are just people trying to like them, do the best we can with the resources we have, and to try to diminish that that power gap.
Marcia Beckner
So you must have seen a big problem with. That then that it was a mystery, like foundation work is a mystery, and grants are a mystery to many.
How did you find that that was a problem?
Karen McNeil-Miller
Well, so many nonprofits, you know, they they submit applications into us, and then something happens inside this black hole, and then they get an answer.
They don’t understand process. They don’t understand that the due diligence that we go through, how we try to align their their work with our agenda or our goals institutionally, and you just hear that over the course of the you know the 20 years I’ve been in the field, foundations are a mystery, and the power differential is staggering, and also can be intimidating, and we don’t want it to be intimidating on purpose.
And so we wanted to invite folks in, let them see what happens under the tent, and not be afraid of
Marcia Beckner
us. Yeah, and I can see that as a executive director myself for almost 10 years, that power differential is real.
And because I can put words to it from my perspective, is it’s so high stakes. Like you need this money to move forward in your mission, but it feels like from an executive director, it’s like it’s not high stakes for the foundation because they have so many options that they can give to and have to really do their due diligence and do their best with their resources.
So yeah, it’s. I love that you have actually incorporated that into the sabbatical program.
Karen McNeil-Miller
And we had, as we researched it, there are several other foundations around the country that offer sabbatical programs.
And when we shared with them that we wanted to offer this month-long executive in residence program, we were told so often, don’t do that.
Why would you want to do that? Why would you? You know, they’re going to be too afraid to come in and tell you the truth.
And I thought, you know, I imagine the people we select are not going to be afraid to come and share anything with us, and they have not been
Marcia Beckner
right. That is that is a myth right there. We get to
Karen McNeil-Miller
learn, and we get to learn from them, their experience in the field, and learn their journey and their story and the kind of work they do.
That helps. That helps educate and inform us to be more focused and and kind of pressure test our directionality and our our strategy, and just to have those folks walk in the halls and being an employee of the foundation essentially for a month really brings the work inside.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah,
Karen McNeil-Miller
and in a way that particularly our employees who don’t get to interact that much with our nonprofit communities, they get to really talk to them, get to know them, and and can feel even greater a sense of okay, this is why I’m here.
Marcia Beckner
Oh yeah, I mean, so what you’ve created is the conditions for strategic collaboration, a partnership that feels a little bit more equal, and that’s that’s phenomenal.
I can’t believe other states, you know, have like denied that opportunity to their partners. Well, you, yeah, you’re on the front edge. I love that.
Karen McNeil-Miller
The other thing that we were told is, or told to expect from other foundations is, don’t expect more than a dozen or so applications a year because the application lift itself is so heavy.
And so we’re like, okay, well, every this is our we’re going into our eighth year, and every year we’ve gotten over 30, and sometimes 40 applications.
And so the good news about that is that the nonprofit community in Colorado sees a need for this. The bad news is there are a lot of tired nonprofit executives in Colorado.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, and I kind of want to switch gears a little bit on that because yours is like a paid formal sabbatical, right? And they their hand their hand is held really really beautifully.
Now there’s so many others, you know, that around the country that are listening to this, like, could could you see a world in which they are building their own paid sabbatical somehow? Is there any pathway?
Karen McNeil-Miller
That has been one of the most exciting, unanticipated consequences of this effort.
We have had so many nonprofits who, in talking with their executive director in the application process, number one have come to really understand how tired their executives are, and have come to understand the need for rest.
And so, probably a third of those that we aren’t. Able to offer sabbaticals to their boards, allow it anyway.
Marcia Beckner
Wow! They find a way
Karen McNeil-Miller
for two to three months. They find a way because they realize the importance of it and the importance of it for the sustainability and durability of the organization, not just the the human being, but the organization itself.
So that’s been that’s been a wonderful outcome. Probably a third also have also started their own internal sabbatical programs.
You know, it’s not as rich as the one we’re able to offer, but they’re able to offer four weeks paid for folks and really expect them to disconnect, and then the I would say the fourth anticipated, but we didn’t understand how strong it was outcome has been.
The application forces you to think about succession, and so many organizations have said, nonprofit leaders have said to us, you know, we really haven’t had a serious conversation about that, but this required us to think that through.
And in the process of thinking about how we would prepare for the executive director or the CEO to be gone for four months, many times it also showed gaps that they hadn’t really thought about in the organization, and folks put their application on pause for a year.
It’s like you know, I’ve got to get this straightened. We’ve got to address this inside the organization before any of us can feel comfortable with the leader stepping away.
So those outcomes have also have always been good for the organization, good for the individual, good for the field.
Marcia Beckner
Absolutely.
Marcia Beckner
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Building the Infrastructure for Sabbatical
Marcia Beckner
So, so what are some more gaps? Do you require them to have like a succession plan then before they can go on sabbatical? We
Karen McNeil-Miller
require them to to name this how the interim leadership is going to be handled, whether that’s one person or two people.
We we really hope they will only announce one person as interim because we really want to build that that bench.
And rather than having dispersed leadership, unless people are really considering a co leadership model and going forward, and this may be an opportunity to kind of pressure test that while the executive’s gone.
So we offer that, and we offer them increased compensation for those people that step up, so that they aren’t taking on more without being rewarded rewarded for us.
We also provide capacity building funds that the organization can use before, during, or after the sabbatical to help again strengthen that durability.
And unlike many sabbaticals, we are completely agnostic as to what that executive does on their time away. We don’t require them to to do anything related to work.
They don’t have to do a project. They don’t have to go off and study anything.
It’s we have a sabbatical and executive in residence here with us now, who spent three weeks in Puerto Rico just by himself to recuperate.
Then he took waters to Africa for a month. Then he came back to another island for a month for rest and rejuvenation and dance classes.
We’ve had folks do two or three months language immersion programs in other countries.
We’ve had people who say, “I just want to visit my family in real time and not just be the in and out.
Yeah, but spend time with my aging parents, with my my siblings. Want to spend more time with my grandkids, and that is all completely fine with us.
We want whatever it’s going to take for you to rejuvenate and come back ready to continue the fight. Is what we want you to do.
Marcia Beckner
And and when they come back after that three months of travel or family time, what what what do they? Come back to in general.
Like, do you do you like follow them for the next year? Like, what was what changed?
Karen McNeil-Miller
We also we also offer them assistance, technical assistance, and coaching in number one how to exit the organization because it’s hard.
We offer them coaching and assistance on the reentry process, also, and that has been-I-I thought the come the leaving would have been the most challenging for folks, but it’s the getting back in because then they don’t know because they’re different when they come back, and the organization is different.
And so we’ve had folks that come back, and they’ve had folks that their their interim an organization have thought about things differently and have implemented new things, and the leader has to first adjust to that, but then more importantly accept it because it was actually great ideas that they might not have ever come up with, or the organization might not have ever presented in the leader’s presence.
We’ve had you know executives come back, and then the person who is our interim goes, you know what? I kinda, I think that I might want that career path.
I might want to be an executive director somewhere, and we’ve had folks when the leader comes back, they’re like, you take this back.
This is harder than I thought it was ever going to be, and I don’t want your job. And I’m glad you have it. Yeah,
Marcia Beckner
probably happens a little bit more often.
So, do you bring in an external interim leader sometimes, or is it just, or kind of wit from within. Is there a pattern?
Karen McNeil-Miller
We ask them to go within. Sometimes maybe a board member, but again, our secondary goal is to strengthen the nonprofit bench, and so it doesn’t suit that or address that goal if someone just comes in as a contractor from outside,
Marcia Beckner
okay. And think about like the person who’s listening right now is like, oh my god, I would love to do that.
I don’t have access to such an incredible program like this. How can I even bring this up to my board in a way that doesn’t sound like I can’t handle it?
I this is too much for me. Maybe they’ll start thinking, “Oh, we need to hire someone else. What if they’re going to hire someone to replace me while I’m gone?
Like, what are the fears that they have in going to their board, and how might they address those?
Karen McNeil-Miller
We ask the board to be intimately involved in this process, and interestingly, in some cases, I’d say probably a third or greater of the cases, the executive director says my board brought this to me and said we want you to apply, or my staff brought this to me and said you need this.
So people around you see the stress.
Yeah, and so to be able to just honestly have the conversation with your board about this is where I am. I want to continue this work.
I need a break of some sort, and I ask a lot of folks to like. Sometimes you got to practice first, you know, just to go from taking zero time off.
You know, we’ve had folks that haven’t had more than a week’s vacation in 20 years. Okay, then maybe to go from one week to four months is a little much.
So let’s. Why don’t you practice? Yeah, two weeks and completely disconnect. Because I know you’ve got the time, you know.
So practice it. Get in. Make it become a discipline rather than something you see as, you know, extra.
We get a part of. If I’m going to be an effective leader, I need to be strategic, be relational in my with my community and with the people we serve.
I need to have a strong board. I need to take care of myself.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, for the purpose of being your best self, it’s not like so many you know leaders in our community have that identity of just like tireless warrior in the fight, and if I leave, then other people are going to suffer.
So yeah, so that’s why I want to talk to the the listener right now who has that approach where I can’t afford to leave; everything will fall apart.
That’s you know not sustainability, and we really need sustainability above all else. Otherwise, really, communities won’t get served if we, you know, just decide to collapse.
Rest, Reentry, and Leadership Sustainability
Karen McNeil-Miller
And it’s really the in life manifestation of put the mask on yourself before you attempt to help others.
You’ve got to. Willing to model rest, you’ve got to be able to sustain yourself to be able to help anyone else, including your community.
And it may be tough at the beginning, but you’ll see the benefits come from it and make it not only a practice of yours, make it a practice of your organizations.
Marcia Beckner
And and do you do this within Colorado Health Foundation and and for yourself? Like, are you able to do that for yourself?
Karen McNeil-Miller
And I am not the best. I am, but I am. I can tell you, I’m getting. I’m much much better.
I am much much better. I will take a two week vacation and limit myself to an hour a day of, or my family limits me to an hour a day of email triage, and that’s only because I don’t want to come back to this that will stress me out even more than I was before I left.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, and. then, do you do the same for your staff? Are they as far as like rest and PTO encourage people to take it? Yeah.
Karen McNeil-Miller
Yes. It’s like don’t leave that in your bank.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah.
Karen McNeil-Miller
Make the time. Make the time because it it only benefits the organization for me to do that.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, especially if there’s like backups or redundancy to your job, to your role, to your tasks.
It’s better that one person doesn’t hold it all because, you know, God forbid, something could happen. They could be gone or something.
So it’s really better for everyone, for you, your team, your organization, the community, if you do this,
Karen McNeil-Miller
and I think it may feel like a courageous or a scary conversation with an executive director’s board, but I think you talk about all kinds of things with them.
And again, I don’t think this will be; it won’t be a surprise that you’re that you’re tired because people can see it.
It won’t be a surprise that you your capacity is diminishing for the work that you aren’t able to step away from the day to day and really be strategic and clear your head.
That’s that won’t be a surprise. And what surprises people is that it’s not a surprise to others.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, and and if you bring it up in a way that is for the better of the organization and your and the capacity of the organization, I think what might surprise the board is if you want to take it tomorrow.
But like you know, say in yeah, I’ve been thinking in six months. I’d like to spend, I’d like to disconnect and and really build a leadership bench underneath me in the meantime, and ensure we have a good succession plan and come back just ready to go and clear head and gosh, that’s just if you talk about in a way that’s really like inspiring to the board.
Not like I’m so. Don’t wait till you’re crashing. You know, in the last 10% kind of notice when you’re kind of cresting over to burnout, and just be open about it and wanting to protect the organization from that.
Karen McNeil-Miller
And particularly now, so we’ve had COVID, which was stressful for everyone.
On top of the normal stressors of being a nonprofit executive, we added COVID on top of that, and the impact of that to communities.
And now we have kind of the current federal environment that is that is reducing funding in many organizations, and that’s again in addition to all the regular stressors.
You’ve got this this new stress, and so it’s not. It wouldn’t. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that people are overstretched.
Marcia Beckner
Yeah, you’d be surprised how many people I talk to that just think that they’re just going to keep on going, working seven days a week, and think that that’s going to end well, you know, for their own personal health, for the for the health of their organization.
So that’s that’s where this megaphone is coming out at Nonprofit CEO SPARK is really don’t normalize that. We’re done with that.
We all need to rest and recuperate,
Karen McNeil-Miller
and I think it’s a dual challenge for for speaking with the board and for talking to us.
Because when folks normally apply for a grant, you know they want to make sure. You know, we’ve got it together here.
We we are all buttoned up and perfect, which is what we do with our boards as well, and this is the opportunity to be vulnerable and say, “Here’s what I’m facing.
I love this work. I want to stay in this work, but in order to stay in it at my best, I need some rest.”
I need to. I need to take a pause, and that’s scary to say to a funder because they’re like, “Oh, but does the funder think, you know, we’re going to collapse?
It’s like, no, we’re not. And so, oftentimes, it’s the second application when they get accepted into the to the medical program because I give them feedback over the first one if they ask for it, and oftentimes that feedback is, we learned a lot about your organization, but we didn’t learn a lot about you.
We didn’t learn a lot about why you applied, why this is the right time, and any of us in an executive role across any field, any sector-you know-being in this role, these roles come at some cost.
What’s the cost to you? Has it been your health? Has it been your relationships? You know, what’s been that cost that you want to now kind of reclaim
Marcia Beckner
and to prioritize your health and your relationships-that’s the quality of your life, right there.
I believe, and you can do all. You can you can be healthy. You can have great relationships, and you can work in a field that you love.
Yeah, and so Karen, I want to kind of end with like when when I saw you speak at the Colorado Women’s Chamber, what’s that Colorado Women’s Chamber event a couple months ago.
I was just fascinated by your story, and and at the end you said something that has totally stuck with me, and I just want to hear more about why you said it.
You said people said you keep going with all of the pain and suffering in the world, and the and the blockers, and from achieving our you know goals, and all the headwinds in place, you said it’s pretty simple.
In the end, we win. Yeah. What I was like that blew me over after we talked about all the challenges. Like, what do you mean by that?
The Fight Continues: Resilience and Social Change
Karen McNeil-Miller
I think history has borne out, you know, for the social agendas we’ve had as a country, the the civil rights, human rights agendas we’ve had as a country.
There have been people who’ve always been willing to keep that fight going, like the nonprofit executives we’ve been talking about, and in the end, we make those advances we’ve been after.
Now they haven’t come without blowback. They haven’t come without pain. I don’t know any social change that has ever happened that didn’t come from some pain, but people have learned to endure and continue to fight.
And again, time and time and time and time and time again in history, we always win.
When I say we, I mean those who really are fighting for civil rights, human rights, racial justice.
We always we always win, and I believe that will continue to happen. And I think the fact that in some of the causes we’re fighting now that we haven’t won, it’s just because it’s not the end yet.
Marcia Beckner
I love that. I’m just I’m going to leave it at that. I think that’s just so beautiful, and thank you so much for your time.
Also, you know this sabbatical program, the name is changing. You can tell we’re making an announcement, you know, at this time.
But the name is changing in the sabbatical program to honor you.
Karen McNeil-Miller
Yes, that was as I I’m retiring at the end this year, and the organization surprised me with this honor, and I can’t.
There is, it’s more than I could have ever asked for or hope for because this is a program I’m so proud of, and know the good it’s doing for these nonprofit executives, for these organizations, and I’m very grateful for that honor, and you know my heart is full for that.
Marcia Beckner
And what is it going to be called exactly?
Karen McNeil-Miller
Oh, Resiliency Sabbatical Program.
Marcia Beckner
Oh, that’s beautiful. Well, I think that you’ve created the gold standard in sabbatical programs, and have seen so many people benefit from it.
And I can only hope that foundations across the country and across the world look at your example and implement it in their own environments and communities.
And wouldn’t we be better off with that?
Karen McNeil-Miller
Yes, thank you so much, thank you so much for having me.
Marcia Beckner
Of course, thank you. And until I’ll say my my saying at the end is always: Remember, you are meant for great things, and you do not have to burn out to prove it.
Before you go, I want to remind you that you don’t have to leave empty-handed today. I created it. Guide for nonprofit leaders like you, covering four things: how to stop spinning out, the number one behavior you can use to lead with more conviction, the secret to building a more inclusive culture starting this week, and a simple weekly ritual that unifies your team.
It’s free, it’s fast, and it’s built to help you lead with more confidence starting today. Grab it now at culturecares.com/guide.
Marcia Beckner
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of Nonprofit CEO SPARK.
If you’re ready to turn burnout into boundaries and build a healthy, happy culture where everyone, including you, can thrive.
Visit culturecares.com to learn how I support nonprofit organizations like yours.
If this episode brought you value, share it with a fellow leader navigating stress and overwhelm.
And remember, you are meant for great things, and you don’t have to burn out to prove it.
Until next time, keep leading with courage and confidence.
Learn about The Dr. Karen McNeil-Miller Restorative Sabbatical Program