Marcia Beckner: Welcome to Nonprofit CEO SPARK the podcast for bold leaders ready to navigate growth and change with energy and confidence.
I’m Marcia Beckner, nonprofit founder, former executive director and culture strategist, with nearly 20 years in the social impact world.
Each week, I help nonprofit leaders stop spinning out set boundaries and design inclusive cultures where all staff can thrive.
If you’re ready to reignite your leadership without sacrificing your well being, hit subscribe, and let’s spark your next chapter together.
If you’ve ever wondered what it actually looks like to lead with confidence when the stakes are high, the team is growing and the decisions keep coming, Today’s guest has been in the room for all of it.
Patton McDowell brings more than 35 years of experience working alongside nonprofit leaders who are navigating growth, complexity and those moments where the path forward isn’t obvious.
He’s partnered with more than 325 organizations supporting boards, CEOs and senior teams as they make critical decisions that shape not just the strategy but the culture and long term impact.
Before launching his firm, PMA nonprofit leadership, Patton held leadership roles with organizations like the Special Olympics International, so he understands this work from the inside out.
Today, he serves as the director of the Institute of philanthropic leadership, where he’s developing the next generation of leaders through programs focused on major gifts, emerging leadership and executive growth.
You might also know him for as the host of the award winning podcast, your path to nonprofit leadership. And He is the author of the book by the same name.
He’s had hundreds of conversations about what it really takes to lead well in this sector. And just to round it out, he holds a doctorate in organizational change and leadership.
So yes, he brings both the lived experience and the academic depth to this conversation. But What I appreciate most about Patton is how grounded and practical he is.
This isn’t theory. This is what actually works when you’re in the middle of it. So let’s get into it. Welcome to the show, Patton.
Patton McDowell: Marcia, delighted to be with you. Thank you for that kind introduction about this conversation.
Marcia Beckner: Me too. I was on your podcast recently. It’s actually coming out in June of 2026, and we had a really great conversation about mergers and how to merge the cultures of two organizations.
I will put that episode in the show notes once it comes out, so to make sure that everybody can access that conversation and then find your wonderful podcast.
I want to ask if you have any additional context to the bio I just read of you why you’re passionate about nonprofit leadership specifically.
Patton McDowell: Well, grateful for the opportunity once again, and I’m glad you lifted up Special Olympics International.
I always like to advocate for the internship opportunities in our sector, because I’m the fortunate recipient of an opportunity.
I started as an intern in Washington, DC, as a Special Olympics international intern, got to meet the founder, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, she was still active at that time.
It gave me a wonderful perspective. And speaking of what we’ll talk about, Marcia, confidence in a leadership role and an intense advocacy for a cause that was powerful for her.
Mrs. Shriver had a family member that was a beneficiary of the program, but anyway, that that’s what started it off for me.
I was fortunate to spend 10 years at that organization, another 10 years in higher education. So as you said, I’ve kind of experienced some of the highs and lows from the inside.
Now I’ve been fortunate in my work with Armstrong McGuire, to work with many nonprofit leaders who, like you and I, have talked about they’re struggling with some of these things.
Addressing the Burnout Crisis
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, and so what? What are the biggest struggles that you’re seeing right now? You know, in the spring summer of 2026
Patton McDowell: Overwhelmed… given the uncertainty in almost every direction a nonprofit leader looks, funding is uncertain, retention of talent is difficult.
Board engagement can be one end of a spectrum to another, from micromanagement to disengagement.
You combine all of that in largely underfunded, often and understaffed organizations that’s tough on a leader.
I find, and again, why your topic is so relevant, hard to remain confident when everything around you is in turmoil.
Then you deal with the challenges of your team looking to you to get their confidence built, and that’s hard.
I can’t say there’s one singular issue, but in all of the leaders I’m working with, it seems like the combination is what is sometimes the hardest.
Marcia Beckner: And, and what do you see is the impact of all those stressors on a leader?
Patton McDowell: Turnover. Number one, we’re losing talented leaders from the sector who ultimately say, You know what I just this is, I can’t deal with this anymore.
You know the impact it has on them personally and their families, and so the more we can do to support leaders.
I talk a lot of times with these leaders about to the extent they can control some of the clutter, and that’s something I’ve found.
Do we have some self inflicted stress, because as a natural nonprofit leader, you’re used to rolling up your sleeves.
You’re used to doing whatever it takes to make things happen. But does that ultimately, as you advance as a leader, create problems because you’re not delegating?
You’re not letting someone else deal with some of the things they can, in fact, empowering them to do so.
If I had to give you a single answer as to what’s the result of this, we’re going to lose good people from the sector.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, I know that. I feel like that’s the tragedy of it all, is that people who are wired to help others and serve others, just completely get overwhelmed.
With that level of burnout where you can’t even you don’t have a minute in the day for yourself, necessarily.
Patton McDowell: The passion for the cause will carry you for a while, but it can’t carry you as far as the organization needs you to stay with it.
Marcia Beckner: Yep, workload, balance and sustainability have got to be top priorities, right?
I want to talk about a problem that a lot of executives have told me. They’ve said that they’re like, really trying to be people pleasers.
They really want to get consensus when it comes to making decisions and moving forward and taking action.
They want consensus and they want everybody to agree, because they feel like that’s what it takes to build a safe environment.
But when taken to an extreme, building consensus stalls growth and stalls the expansion of your mission potentially.
We want to just find the right balance. There’s nothing wrong with consensus.
Was there a moment where you were trying to be collaborative and it actually slowed a decision or made it harder on yourself to lead?
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
Patton McDowell: Very much so I was one of the youngest program directors in the country as the Senior Program Officer at Special Olympics North Carolina.
I felt, as we all do, I bet, sometimes a bit of imposter syndrome.
I felt like and the reason I wanted unanimous approval for any decision because I worried that people were judging my capacity and quality as a leader.
We were tackling some new programming ideas. I had ideas that I thought made sense, but I probably stunted the growth of these ideas.
I was trying to convince everybody that it was the right decision. And you’re never going to get everybody to agree.
You don’t want everybody to be exactly of the same opinion, but as a younger professional with some insecurities that I now happily admit.
I think is the result, sometimes of our people pleasing nature, wanting everyone to like me and wanting everyone to agree with me.
I wonder if you hit a point Marcia, that I don’t know exactly what the formula is, but I’ve heard some leaders say that is it 75%?
Is that as close as you’re going to get, because you will wait forever for 100% agreement.
But if you get two thirds and you feel confident, then You need to be transparent. You need to communicate it, and you need to do it.
And if it doesn’t work, then you are transparent about that. But at least in my experience that I still kind of shudder a little bit at.
Gosh, how much time did I lose because I was afraid to make the decision?
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing about imposter syndrome, and that is so relatable.
I believe if you don’t have narcissistic personality disorder, then you you suffer from something else, which is imposter syndrome, one or the other.
Patton McDowell: That’s a different episode, right? Yeah.
Marcia Beckner: Part two, yeah. But I think we’re giving people a really good practical tip right now, which is a range.
How many people you can get to buy in to the next decision or action. You said two thirds, you know, two thirds, and you move forward.
I had a peer of mine say he tried to make 80% of the people 100% happy.
Patton McDowell: That’s a good I like that. That’s a good formula.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, I would say so somewhere our range is two thirds to 80%.
Patton McDowell: Yes.
Marcia Beckner: Right? Let’s, let’s make that like a, you know, an actionable takeaway for anyone listening.
And you’re in the middle of, you know, a persuasion campaign around your next idea or your next action or decision, two thirds to 80% I think you’re good to go.
Patton McDowell: And if at least you gave everyone to voice. I think that the mistake we make sometimes is then not allowing everyone that wants to weigh in, to weigh in.
That is what frustrates your team, I think, well, they never talked to me, and I’m the one that has to execute on this plan.
So doesn’t mean everyone is you have to be clear. Yes, I want your voice, and I’m going to take it under consideration.
I guess what I’m saying, maybe you want 100% opportunity to provide feedback, right?
And then hopefully between two thirds and 80% agree after the result is delivered.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah. And in this one statement is really powerful too. You can say nothing is set in stone.
I’ve seen leaders who are really strong in culture say nothing is set in stone. We’ve got two thirds agreement on the direction.
Everyone’s had a say. We appreciate all of your feedback into this decision, and we’re going to try it for three months.
And if we try it for three months and it’s not working, we’re going to reassess and adjust.
And everybody can weigh in on this process or SOP that we’re trying to create.
In that way, you’re just making steps forward, and you’re also normalizing like this might not work, or it might work better than we expected.
Patton McDowell: Exactly right? That’s so well put. And again, it just sets the stage for transparency.
But it also makes clear that not everybody’s gonna agree with everything. But, We’re gonna, and that’s okay, best we can, right?
Marcia Beckner: Right? Because we do want different perspectives. So actually, 100% is impossible if you have everybody thinking the same way.
Patton McDowell: It… couldn’t agree more.
Marcia Beckner: Means that you do have a diverse team, and you can point that out.
Nonprofit leaders, I’m sure you see this in your work, are taught to be inclusive and collaborative. Where does that start to go wrong in practice?
Patton McDowell: I think it also if we are so intent on getting all the opinions and involving everybody and everything, you do lose efficiency, and ultimately the mission suffers.
I do want to give everyone a chance, but I also think we have to put kind of boundaries on that, that, hey, for the next 30 days, I’m going to be talking to everybody.
Notice, I think it’s important to set kind of a deadline when I’ve started new jobs.
As you arrive in a new organization, everyone’s nervous new leader coming in. What is this going to mean for me?
They’re worried perhaps, that you’re going to make changes. The rumors start things like that.
But I think in any of these decisions, while you want to be collaborative, I think you put a timeline on it.
Is it 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? Because if you don’t, you’re just going to ride a roller coaster of the opinion of the day.
So some sort of self designed timeline is a way for you to communicate. Yes, I’m going to hear from you, but at the end of the month, we’re going to move forward.
Strategic Meeting Management
Marcia Beckner: Yes, that sounds like a very reasonable tact to make now, okay, let’s say there’s a leader listening right now.
I’m going to put these ideas into practice, and you still get pushback from your staff, and people are still not happy.
Which is something that leaders deal with all the time is that this person’s not happy, or that person’s not happy.
Do you have any, you know, tactical strategies that work in order to deal with pushback in a way that preserves your own health and well being?
Patton McDowell: I think you got to distinguish between the topic and the person, because it’s natural for the individual maybe to take it personally.
You disagree with me, and that does that somehow imply you don’t like them?
I think very clearly and quickly, you want to indicate that, Look, I respect your opinion. I’m glad you gave your opinion.
I didn’t go in that direction this time. But I also want to acknowledge some of the other contributions you’ve made to our organization.
There’s kind of a combination of acknowledgement, I heard you, and respect the work you’re doing.
But let’s distinguish I just simply don’t agree with a specific topic we’re discussing.
I find that you just kind of have to respond to that with kindness and in a respectful way.
But it’s also okay to indicate it’s not the answer you’re gonna take.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, I think the higher level of trust and respect you can earn from your team, the easier those conversations are always.
We’re talking about how to proactively build trust so that these conversations can be just more respectful and easier.
And your team is like, Okay, I I may not agree. I don’t see all the things that you see when you’re making this decision.
But I’m going to trust that you know that this is going to be good for everyone involved. How do you proactively build trust?
Patton McDowell: Yeah, make sure everyone’s voice is heard in even some of the mechanical things like your team meetings.
I think there’s such opportunities when you have existing gatherings of your team. Are you the one dominating every discussion?
If you are the senior leader on paper, or are you delegating conversations in a way that allow everyone’s voice to be heard?
Because that is such an empowering element for someone on the team.
The opposite of that is what tears culture apart, where there are a few louder voices that seem to dominate.
I’m a big believer in meeting management and meeting design is a huge part of culture.
Those are the unique pretends when everybody’s in the room together, and often everyone then after that goes in their different directions.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, and I’ll admit something from my past that I’m embarrassed that I didn’t know how to do back in the day.
When I was an executive director, I didn’t know how to facilitate meetings well.
I had someone that was like dominating. It wasn’t me, but it was someone else dominating every single thing, and I didn’t cut it off.
Everybody knew that this other person just would talk 75% the meeting, and the rest of us were lucky to get a word in.
Do you have facilitation tools that you can help leaders who are listening right now to implement in their next team meeting?
Patton McDowell: Yeah. I mean time blocking any topic, being very intentional, of proactively having different people lead different parts of the agenda.
If you try to lead it by yourself as the leader, the loudest voices do sometimes and are the ones that always answer.
But can we distribute the agenda to more people in the room? Sometimes you have to do the gentle, thanks for your feedback, but let’s let somebody else speak.
Marcia Beckner: Do you recommend having a one on one conversation with the dominator outside of the meeting?
Patton McDowell: Yes. I think, and you know, starts with appreciation. Thank you for speaking up. Thank you for your passion about our cause.
But as you and I both know, I want to make sure other voices are also heard.
If you talk as much as you do, you have others around the table that are retreating.
Maybe that will have this person, frankly, build their own EQ skills, because it’s a lack of emotional intelligence.
Maybe there’s an insecurity that I wanted you to know that I’m enthusiastic about this. I wanted you to be impressed with what I knew.
I assure them, okay, I do appreciate your voice. I do respect what you bring.
But remember, we’re going to be stronger if everybody’s voice is at the table, and if you take up all the time hard to do that.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, yeah, that was a difficult conversation that I knew I needed to have at the time that I avoided.
Patton McDowell: We’ve all been there. We’ve all been there.
Marcia Beckner: If I could turn back time, I would do that differently, but that’s why when I’m coaching CEOs or senior leaders, we talk about that and the meeting design.
Tell me more about like meeting design. Let’s say you have a weekly staff meeting.
How do you optimize that opportunity for building culture as well as getting work done?
Patton McDowell: Yeah, and I’m glad you’re inviting this. Let’s make sure the agenda truly allows us for strategic conversation.
Is there an agenda at all? If there’s not an agenda with some clear objectives, then we don’t need to have the meeting.
I have found too Marcia lately to reduce the timeframe of meetings makes them higher quality.
It’s called Parkinson’s Law. We basically fill the time that on them is on the calendar.
I would encourage everybody listening to think about every meeting on your calendar. I’ve done this kind of an audit of all meetings related to the team.
Why not 45 minutes? Why not 30 minutes? So number one, audit your agenda and see how much of it truly is strategic.
Truly has a goal or an objective attached to it and has a distributed kind of leadership.
If you’re the one dictating every single topic on the agenda, I just don’t think that’s as effective.
Meetings are a good way to build leadership around you.
Refining the Tactical Cadence
Marcia Beckner: Oh yeah, that is something I think I did well at the organization that I was leading.
I was not the owner of that meeting, necessarily. Our program operations director was and she developed an amazing agenda for 30 minutes a week.
It was so on point. It was so meaningful. It wasn’t a struggle. It wasn’t me doing it. It was her and she really kept time.
She’s a project manager brain, which I don’t have. I’m like, let’s talk about ideas all day long.
Patton McDowell: But you need somebody that brings that always.
Marcia Beckner: Always do better when I partner with somebody like that. And it was wonderful. It was such a simple agenda.
We just did shout outs in the beginning and a mission moment. Then we did three MITs for every single person to go through.
And MIT is your most important thing for the week. We met on Mondays. Everybody went around. Here’s my most important one, two or three things.
This is that I need help from this person for something, or I need help from you. What resources do they need?
And then schedule changes at the end. Anybody have a dentist appointment or vacation coming up? Done, done with that meeting.
Patton McDowell: It reminds me of Patrick Lencioni’s books. Death by Meeting is one of my favorite books ever on this topic.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, we all are. I mean, there’s you can really just let meetings kind of eat up your week easily.
I love your idea of a meeting audit, and I would even say, like, quarterly, let’s look at our meetings strategically.
Patton McDowell: And then your team feels empowered simply inviting that.
Each quarter, I want to ask you, are these meetings accomplishing what you need?
I’ve seen some organizations rotate two functions at each meeting, a facilitator and a timekeeper.
Rotating that allows different types of engagement, frankly, keeps us on task and then people don’t get offended.
Lencioni has a fascinating concept. He calls it meeting stew.
Frustrated by meetings because individuals come to the meeting with different objectives.
Some people come to the meeting just here to kind of cut to the chase.
Other people come to the meeting wanting deeper conversation. When we have that conflicting objectives, everybody leaves frustrated.
The leader kind of is not sure, and maybe settles in the middle, and then everybody’s disappointed.
Marcia Beckner: Right. And that really tanks your confidence as a leader.
How to strategically build your confidence is to get control again over these meetings, invite input, clarify objectives.
There’s teams out there right now where the leader wants it to be super efficient and the team wants to talk for 90 minutes.
Patton McDowell: Define and have different types of meetings with the clear definition you just described.
Call your weekly weekly tactical, or some such definition, which kind of sets the stage for Hey, we’re not here to go deep dive.
Then you could call it your monthly strategic. We’ll take more time and expand the agenda to allow discussion.
Then maybe you have quarterly retreats that you know, half day even.
What you signal to everybody: I know the weekly meeting is for tactical get things done, but I know I’ll have a chance each month to strategize.
That has been my experience and what I’ve seen done well is it not trying to do as Lencioni says, meeting-stew every time.
Marcia Beckner: Oh, that’s what meeting-stew means. We’re mixing the agenda.
Patton McDowell: None of it’s going to be done well, because you’re trying to squish it all together.
Marcia Beckner: That’s so true. I love it. Thank you so much for kind of putting that all together.
I think that we’ve given leaders a really meaty episode. I’m really excited about sharing this with everyone.
I love finding things that can make leaders feel more confident quickly, that cost nothing.
Patton McDowell: Exactly, no investment here needed.
Marcia Beckner: Right. And it’s actually going to buy back some of your time, your sanity.
If you’re always underwater with self doubt and imposter syndrome, how to really be clear in your leadership will build that trust and respect.
I kind of want to sum up by think about doing this cadence for your year.
Think about a quarterly, half a day strategy session with your team, audit the meetings for the next quarter.
Clarify what the top priorities are and then set up your meetings like your monthly planning meetings.
Then the weekly tactical, it can be 30 minutes for a team of five or six, probably you might need 45 for a team of 10 or 12.
Patton McDowell: Exactly.
Marcia Beckner: Any meetings that are bigger than that is like a conference.
Patton McDowell: Yeah, it’s a whole different animal. Then, right?
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, most team meetings are kind of like 10 or less.
Somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes a week to get really clear on the tactical actions that need to be taken.
Patton McDowell: 100% and one more thought is, if you want to do your team a favor, declare one day a week that you don’t have any meetings.
I have seen a nice movement around this because I felt like I was in meetings all the time.
There’s that refrain, I’m not getting any work done because I’m always in meetings.
So maybe you just declare no meeting Wednesdays.
Marcia Beckner: Right, right? I think that that’s really powerful. Your team will light up talking about your confidence.
We did no meetings just for the mornings of Wednesdays in a larger organization. Not everyone even stuck to that.
Patton McDowell: Oh, really?
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, they’re like, Okay, I have a free morning. I couldn’t fit that meeting anywhere else.
That’s just around individual boundaries, but they have to see the leader holding to it.
Patton McDowell: Violating their own rule. Won’t work.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah. So it’s always about modeling what you want to see the rest of the team do. It’s not just what you say, it’s what you do.
Well, Patton, thank you so much for this. Where can people find out more about you?
Patton McDowell: My name Patton McDowell is where you find me on LinkedIn. That’s where I’m most active.
Armstrong McGuire is the name of the firm I’m part of and doing lots of programming.
Then thank you, your path to nonprofit leadership is the key phrase for me. It’s the podcast and the book.
Marcia Beckner: Yeah, we’ll put all that information in the show notes as well.
I’d love to continue this conversation. Just go to culture cares.com check out what we do.
If you’re struggling with confidence or imposter syndrome, that’s what we do and who we help.
Have a wonderful day, and remember you are meant for great things, and you don’t have to burn out to prove it.
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of Nonprofit CEO SPARK.
If you’re ready to turn burnout into boundaries and build a healthy, happy culture where everyone, including you, can thrive, visit culturecares.com.
If this episode brought you value, share it with a fellow leader, navigating stress and overwhelm.
Until next time, keep leading with courage and confidence.